tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post3377832622431732985..comments2023-12-19T11:11:30.124+00:00Comments on The Spirit Level Delusion: 20 questions for Richard Wilkinson & Kate PickettChristopher Snowdonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-57638419888138665442014-07-11T14:33:17.803+01:002014-07-11T14:33:17.803+01:00Hi Chris,
Well done finding these gaps in the res...Hi Chris,<br /><br />Well done finding these gaps in the research, these 'leaps of statistical analysis' for us.<br />I have only read the first and last chapters of TSL because I know that trawling through all the stats is going to be a pointless exercise.<br /><br />The thing with inequality (both within countries and between them) is that its very hard to measure. Sure, we can know who earns what and how much of the wealth is held by how many people but after that it gets very tricky.<br /><br />How much 'equality weighting' do you give to tax rate? What is the tax spent on? How big is the black market? How much do they value money as a society? How many hours are people working to gain their income (this affects both rich and poor people)?<br /><br />Similar issues arise with crime, mental illness and happiness. How do you measure these things? How much goes unreported? How much do you weight for laws and cultural norms?<br /><br />W & P try to show that inequality has a consistent negative effect on various social outcomes - it does not have to be the biggest effect. When you take individual countries and say 'hang on, look at Finland's murder rate, it doesn't fit the trend' then you are missing the point. For whatever reason Finland has lots of murders - as you have said yourself, there are other factors at play here.<br /><br />You do seem to take an unbiased 'this doesn't prove anything either way' approach to the effects of inequality; however, I can see you feel strongly about W & P's promotion of a zero-growth economy. Is this where your distrust of TSL comes from?<br />Could you tell me a bit about why you are against a zero-growth economy?<br />ThanksDavid Nutsfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-1486993206949399152014-05-21T16:31:19.754+01:002014-05-21T16:31:19.754+01:00Unknown,
I've no idea which study you're ...Unknown,<br /><br />I've no idea which study you're referring to, but if it's in the post above it will have something to do with inequality. <br /><br />Yes, health correlates with wealth at the individual level, there's no doubt about it. Wilkinson does, however, say that "wealth within a country" is not an important factor in the countries studied in The Spirit Level. In fact, he pretty much starts the book with that argument (see p. 6-7 and p. 12). It's integral to what follows. If that's your killer example of me 'distorting research results', I can see why you didn't provide any more.<br /><br />I'm well aware the W & P have claimed that there is a correlation between inequality and health, thanks. I've written extensively about that so won't go into it again here.<br /><br />I'm not in the habit of buying books on the recommendation of mildly abusive anonymous commentators, but I'm sure the author will be pleased by the plug. Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-50527684221504557482014-05-20T20:47:27.189+01:002014-05-20T20:47:27.189+01:00Great job of distorting research results. One exa...Great job of distorting research results. One example is citing a study in Canada's healthcare system that found that differences in health correlated with absolute wealth. Wilkinson et. al. would not find that surprising. They never suggested at wealth within a country or a US state was not a major factor in individual health. However, they did find strong correlation between the relative amount of inequality between nations or states with health outcomes for all citizens including those were were wealthier. No better evidence of the benefits of a more equal society to health than the analysis found in 'The American Health Care Paradox'. Give it a read if you like research based information more than ideology.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14794910972174879574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-37030045889871920692014-05-04T04:47:56.665+01:002014-05-04T04:47:56.665+01:00I like how they point to Finland's homicide ra...I like how they point to Finland's homicide rate being higher than other "equal" countries, despite the fact that only 14% of overall homicides in Finland involve guns.<br /><br />http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7087494.stmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-73019808768435912013-03-22T23:25:54.082+00:002013-03-22T23:25:54.082+00:00Thanks. I should clarify for anyone who stumbles o...Thanks. I should clarify for anyone who stumbles on this post that the Heritage measure is of economic freedom rather than freedom generally. I doubt Singapore would score so highly on a measure of social liberty.<br /><br />The new Human Development Report has recently been published. If I get some time I'll update some of the graphs with the latest data from that.Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-3050880294804630092013-03-22T22:58:36.271+00:002013-03-22T22:58:36.271+00:00Thank you for this great work. Just for the fun of...Thank you for this great work. Just for the fun of it I created a plot freedom vs inequality, with the countries from the TED video, but dont take it too seriously.<br />Interestingly Greece, Italy, France, Portugal stick out the bottom, which does not surprise me at all, as the EU and the Euro as well as socialist politics are destroying them.<br />http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151560493408665&set=pb.721993664.-2207520000.1363992773&type=3&theater<br />ab0032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-4292155754182245772012-11-29T09:33:11.273+00:002012-11-29T09:33:11.273+00:00Anon,
Using a pejorative term is not the same thi...Anon,<br /><br />Using a pejorative term is not the same thing as making an ad hom argument, and I challenge your assumption all blog comments are made with a straight face. In any case, it refers to the people for whom TSL is a theory of everything - not necessarily the authors, who I would not immediately associate with champagne - and it is not because they believe that 'equality is healthy' but because they are keen on zero growth that they are misanthropic. And I'd rather be called a misanthrope than a member of the far-right, which is what W & P, in their 'professionalism', have called their critics (amongst many other pejoratives).Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-6623967155669402222012-11-29T07:50:42.501+00:002012-11-29T07:50:42.501+00:00I'm sorry but how can you mention the problem ...I'm sorry but how can you mention the problem of ad hominem attacks and then, with a straight face, use such expressions as "Misanthropic, middle-class champagne socialists" to describe people who simply believe that greater equality is healthy for societies. Being centrist myself, I just can't help but notice W & P have not shown once such a lack of professionalism toward their critics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-34668009262482684552012-05-23T15:26:27.463+01:002012-05-23T15:26:27.463+01:00Gerald,
Tempted to agree with you. A few Marxist f...Gerald,<br />Tempted to agree with you. A few Marxist friends and even a Labour politician have told me that The Spirit Level in no way represents their views. 'Misanthropic, middle-class champagne socialists' would have been a better term to use.Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-58703536116337369762012-05-23T14:51:02.207+01:002012-05-23T14:51:02.207+01:00"Some people are just interested in testing h..."Some people are just interested in testing hypotheses." If this is true, your case would have been better served by omitting any reference to "The Left" in the title of your book.Geraldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-19960250030384459172012-01-19T09:38:58.600+00:002012-01-19T09:38:58.600+00:00That is indeed a typo. Thanks for spotting it. Now...That is indeed a typo. Thanks for spotting it. Now corrected.Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-33077147702453235232012-01-18T21:29:32.449+00:002012-01-18T21:29:32.449+00:00In question 5 you mention that removing Portugal d...In question 5 you mention that removing Portugal drops the r-squared from 0.1 to 0.89. Should that read 0.089, or am I misunderstanding the statistics?indiscreetpetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05106206341387097211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-78592803336201097712011-09-14T18:20:21.914+01:002011-09-14T18:20:21.914+01:00Vincent,
Thanks for your comments. There are mor...Vincent, <br /><br />Thanks for your comments. There are more hyperlinks to put in and your comment has prompted me to get round to doing so.<br /><br />I've put a list of articles on the right hand side of the blog in a timeline that gives various different points of view. I make the assumption that anyone who is sufficiently interested to read this post has already read The Spirit Level, which is of course the argument I am challenging. This particular post includes W & P's responses in full. <br /><br />The TPA article is, I think, the only English language response from Sanandaji et al, who produced their own independent critique of The Spirit Level. The TPA have their own political viewpoint, just as the Equality Trust does, but that doesn't negate what Sanandaji has to say. <br /><br />Not sure which are the ad hominems. Please give examples. Thanks.Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-16389217561600380902011-09-14T14:53:09.040+01:002011-09-14T14:53:09.040+01:00Thanks for some elucidating arguments. May I sugge...Thanks for some elucidating arguments. May I suggest some ideas which would help me understanding the discussion and make me more comfortable in checking both sides of the argument:<br /><br />- Some of the arguments become clearly "ad hominem": accusations of dishonesty etc. Why do this? It doesn't help your argument, obscures it even more and goes "off topic" from a scientific discourse you are arguing to stimulate. Please refrain from doing this, it makes me doubt your professionalism.<br /><br />- I would welcome if you and your opponents would hyperlink to the articles you cite, so it is possible to check. I applaud you making your citations transparent, that helps. You might even make screenshots or highlight these parts in the original texts, so they become more easily verifiable.<br /><br />- I would welcome some arguments against your own points of view (I include your opponents). I mainly see arguments in favor of your respective point of view, which leads me to think this has become more of an ideological discourse than a scientific one focused on finding insights.<br /><br />- It doesn't really help that the hyperlink you include with more discourse direct to a site (taxpayersalliance.com) which has a clearly politically motivated stance on government. Even if I would have not known your arguments (how valid they may be), I might already have guessed how they might be directed solely from the forum they are being discussed. If you want to make it more focused on content, please direct your readers to peer reviewed articles published as a review of W&L's book and/or articles. You already did that to some extent, thanks for that.Vincent vd Lubbehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10474962647366066826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-5053315195711296842011-07-18T20:50:16.330+01:002011-07-18T20:50:16.330+01:00Hi Matt,
The data are from the World Values Surve...Hi Matt,<br /><br />The data are from the World Values Survey and can be accessed from www.worldvaluessurvey.org. This is the same source as used in The Spirit Level, but they use an older wave of the survey. I use the most recent data where available, ie. the 2005-08 series.Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-1714568893406968852011-07-18T19:38:23.510+01:002011-07-18T19:38:23.510+01:00Regarding question 17, on trust. You write that &q...Regarding question 17, on trust. You write that "If you use data from the 2000s"...<br /><br />Which data/studies are you referring to?<br /><br />Thanks.Matt Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-17220582363167793012011-06-13T13:14:18.995+01:002011-06-13T13:14:18.995+01:00Anon,
Hong Kong has its own borders, own currency,...Anon,<br />Hong Kong has its own borders, own currency, own legal system, own parliament, own history, own identity and own passports. This makes it a country by any normal definition. HK's history is obviously unusual but it's an international city state and - this is the significant bit for the purpose of statistics - the UN collects data on Hong Kong separately. Ignoring that data because of the country's status of being a nation but not a full nation state is unjustifiable, which is why those who compare international statistics professionally don't do so - and why HK is on the sources used in TSL but was removed by W & P. It would be equally valid to study Scotland or Wales, neither of which are fully sovereign but both of which are - most people would agree - countries. <br /><br />To digress slightly, The Spirit Level doesn't claim that the effects of inequality are confined to countries anyway. The claim is that it affects 'societies', including individual US states.Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-14689072368983229882011-06-13T06:22:53.449+01:002011-06-13T06:22:53.449+01:00Hong Kong isn't a country.Hong Kong isn't a country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-69600221467793602392011-04-27T00:30:20.473+01:002011-04-27T00:30:20.473+01:00Regarding the crime rate in the US, one of the lea...Regarding the crime rate in the US, one of the leading causes of it being lower has to do with a substantial rise in inprisonment. See a couple of the charts on this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_StatesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-62313093061782593202011-01-01T06:38:00.988+00:002011-01-01T06:38:00.988+00:00The link in the last para does not work.The link in the last para does not work.ken nielsennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-82646871522294978472010-11-19T21:51:37.080+00:002010-11-19T21:51:37.080+00:00Henry,
I don't work for a neoliberal organisa...Henry,<br /><br />I don't work for a neoliberal organisation. I don't now and never have. Not that it would matter if I had, but—as it happens—I haven't. Ad hominem arguments are always intellectually feeble, but are all the more so when aimed at the wrong target.<br /><br />Perhaps it's not your fault. Wilkinson and Pickett have done a very good job of convincing their natural supporters that all the criticisms of their work are "politically motivated". That's nonsense too. Some people are just interested in testing hypotheses. To quote from a blog I was reading just yesterday (one which is far from 'neoliberal'):<br /><br />"The points being made now by the critics of W & P are not new. While I'm sure we're not going to resolve this debate any time soon it would be grossly misleading to pretend that these criticisms are purely politically motivated. Many researchers in this field were unimpressed when Wilkinson first made these arguments and those objections still stand largely unanswered."<br /><br /><a href="http://pyjamasinbananas.blogspot.com/2010/10/levelling-spirit-pt-1.html" rel="nofollow">http://pyjamasinbananas.blogspot.com/2010/10/levelling-spirit-pt-1.html</a>Christopher Snowdonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15963753745009712865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-19511653886304502842010-11-19T20:53:25.466+00:002010-11-19T20:53:25.466+00:00How surprising that someone working for a neoliber...How surprising that someone working for a neoliberal organisation doesn't like the findings in The spirit level...Henry Carlshamnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-58891411095865813122010-08-16T12:29:02.309+01:002010-08-16T12:29:02.309+01:00Thanks for this posting. I will now go and buy you...Thanks for this posting. I will now go and buy your book. I had read the Spirit Level and felt that it was very strange that all the data presented backed up the authors. It was as if this was the only area of scientific investigation that had no contrary data.<br /><br />I am glad that you have the skills to address the unease that I felt when I read that book.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09116004534168452556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4761750297977694004.post-5567767281228282252010-05-03T13:40:01.805+01:002010-05-03T13:40:01.805+01:00I have no hesitation in recommending this book. Th...I have no hesitation in recommending this book. The writing is excellent and the arguments are put very clearly. As the title says, Snowdon checks the facts: a tedious job, which almost never gets done - certainly not in such a competent and entertaining manner. He then brings to light relevant material which the authors of Spirit Level were either not aware of, or chose to ignore. That much of the book resembles a turkey shoot is a tribute to Snowdon's analytical talent and the huge amount of background research. The only section against which I thought an argument could possibly be made was "recycling". Critics might argue that more equal societies elect Governments which favour it.<br /> I found this book far easier and more enjoyable to read than the Spirit Level. Don't be put off if you found that a bit of a chore. Since the Spirit Level became a favourite of the London Chattering Classes (lots of pictures and no hard sums), I don't anticipate much favourable attention from the broad sheets; although even the BBC recently managed to turn around its "5 a day" supertanker, so we can live in hope.<br /> Should the Spirit Level Delusion impress you, why not order a copy of Snowdon's first book: Velvet Glove Iron Fist? You won't be disappointed.<br />Jonathan BagleyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com